Meaning of Dhira.

72/11/17 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.12


na tv evaham jatu nasam
na tvam neme janadhipah
na caiva na bhavisyamah
sarve vayam atah param
 [Bg. 2.12]

Krsna is giving more enlightenment on the living entity, soul. "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." Now, Krsna says that "In the past I existed. So also you. And so also all these soldiers and the kings who have assembled in this fighting. They existed in the past. For the present, there is no question of asking... We are existing. And in the future also, it is not that we shall not exist." That means, "We shall exist." So what is "I," "you," and "others"? I am individual person. You are individual person, and all others, they're also, each and every one of them, individual persons. So in the past we were all individuals; at present we are all individuals; and in the future also, we shall remain individuals. So where there is question of merging, become one? Here Krsna says that "In the past we are individual persons, in the present we are all individual persons, and in future also, we shall remain individuals."

So the Mayavadi theory that impersonal, how it stands? Neither God is impersonal, nor the living entities are impersonal. Every one of us -- person. The difference between the Supreme Person and our personality is that He is all-powerful; we are limited. Our power is limited. Everything, ours, limited. Anu, vibhu. He is great; we are small. He is infinite; we are infinitesimal, very small. Otherwise, in all other qualities, we are one. There is no difference. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. In eternity, in blissfulness, and in knowledge. Everything is there. But Krsna's knowledge and our knowledge, different. Just like Krsna said, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. "I spoke this yoga system, Bhagavad-gita, long, long ago to the sun-god." Vivasvan manave praha. "And the sun-god explained it to his son, Manu; and Manu again, in his turn, he explained to his son, Iksvaku. In this way, this knowledge of Bhagavad-gita is coming by the disciplic succession." So Krsna says, "I spoke." So it is millions and millions, at least, four hundred thousand millions of times, millions of years ago, according to the calculation of Manu. So Krsna said million; and millions of years ago this Bhagavad-gita, He remembers. But Arjuna inquired from Him that "How can I believe that You spoke this Bhagavad-gita millions of millions years ago to sun-god, because we are contemporary?" Krsna and Arjuna, they're of, practically of the same age.

So Arjuna was calculating as a human being about Krsna. That was his mistake. That was his not mistake. That was his inquiry to clear the mistake of our. We mistake Krsna as one of us. Because Krsna comes down as human being, we, due to our lack of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge, we think Krsna is as good as we are. But actually it is not. Krsna is God. We are ordinary living entities. His knowledge, His power of remembrance, His power of knowing everything perfectly is different from our knowing. But unfortunately we think, "God may be little greater than me." That is that Dr. Frog philosophy. We have explained several times. Kupa-manduka-nyaya. The frog within the well, he is calculating the dimension of Pacific Ocean. So by this dog, frog philosophical way, we can, we cannot understand what is God. We must receive the knowledge from God Himself, or from a person who knows God. Otherwise, there is no possibility. Now, according to maya..., Mayavada philosophy, they say that there is no duality. It is a kind of illusion that we see difference between God and ourself. That is maya. Then Krsna is not advocating herewith about the impersonal feature of the Lord. He says, ah, He represents... He is God himself. He says "I, I was existing as I am existing now, and in future also, I shall exist like this." So He was speaking as individual person. So in the past He says that "I was individual person." And in the present He's individual person. So why these Mayavadi philosophy, philosophers, do not understand this direct version from the Supreme Personality of Godhead? Because asuram bhavam asritah [Bg. 7.15]. The Mayavadi philosophers, they do not accept the supremacy of the Personality of Godhead. They think God is as good as they are. Therefore they introduce themselves as Narayana. But according to Vaisnava philosophy, Narayana cannot be equal to any one of us. What speak of us, Narayana cannot be equally estimated even with great demigods like Lord Brahma, Lord Siva. That is... The Vaisnava Purana says, yas tu narayanam devam brahma-rudradi-daivataih, samatvenaiva vikseta sa pasandi bhavad dhruvam: [Cc. Madhya 18.116] "Anyone who calculates Narayana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, equal with such demigods, not, what to speak of ordinary human beings, even big, big demigods like Lord Siva, Lord Brahma, he immediately becomes a pasandi, atheist." So if... The Mayavadi philosophy, they put forward this argument that "Because we are now in maya, we are thinking that we are different from God." But Krsna is making thus such differentiation that... He's making, He's saying, "You and I and all these." So does it mean that Krsna is also covered by maya or illusion? Because He is very clearly differentiating between Him and the living entities, all individuals. So if the Mayavadi philosopher is right that this differentiation is due to our illusion, then we have to accept Krsna is also in illusion. Because He's making differentiation. So if Krsna is in illusion, then what is the use of taking His version? Because our proposition is that we have to take knowledge from the perfect person. So if Krsna is in illusion, then how He can become perfect person, and the knowledge delivered by Him is perfect? No. Krsna is not illusioned. We are in illusion. Krsna is not in illusion. Krsna cannot be in illusion.

(reads from purport:) "In the Vedas, in the Katha Upanisad as well as in the Svetasvatara Upanisad, it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the maintainer of innumerable living entities..." The Supreme Personality of Godhead... Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko bahunam vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). There is eka and bahu. The bahu, they are also nitya and cetana. That means we living entities, we are also cetana and eternal. And Krsna is also eternal and cetana. So so far the living symptoms and the eternity is concerned, both the living entities and God, Krsna, they are one. But the difference is that eko bahunam vidadhati kaman, that one, that chief one, although He's eternal and living force as we are, but He is the chief. He maintains all others. That is the version. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman, tam atma-stham ye 'nupasyanti dhiras tesam santih sasvati netaresam. This is the version from Kathopanisad. Nityo nityanam. He's the supreme eternal amongst all the other eternals. Cetanas cetananam. He's the supreme living force amongst all other living forces. Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. That one, singular number, eka, He is providing, maintaining, all other living entities. Tam atma-stham. He is also in everyone's heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. Tam atma-stham ye 'nupasyanti dhirah. Anyone who can perceive His presence, dhira, very highly learned or very gentle, dhira... Dhira means who is not disturbed. He's called dhira. And there are others who are called adhira. Adhira means those who are disturbed. So those who are in the material world, they are always disturbed. And those who are on the spiritual platform, they are dhira. Dhiradhira. About the Gosvamis it is said:

krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau premamrtambho-nidhi
dhiradhira-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau pujitau
sri-caitanya-krpa-bharau bhuvi bhuvo bharavahantarakau
vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

So one who is in the transcendental position, he's dhira. One poet, poet Kalidasa, he has described, dhira means: "Even in the presence of provocation, one who is not disturbed, he's called dhira." He has described about Lord Siva. When Lord Siva was being worshiped by Parvati, Lord Siva was naked and Parvati was worshiping the siva-linga, but he did not become agitated. Therefore Kalidasa has described: dhira. Dhira. One who is not... The first disturbance is sexual disturbance. So anyone, although he is completely potent with all the potencies, but still, he is not disturbed with sex impulses, he's called dhira. Actually, that is called brahmacari. Brahmacari is not he is impotent. He can marry. He can beget children. But self-restrained. He's so self-restrained, that he's not disturbed. Unless he desires that "I shall have sex and for begetting children," he's not disturbed. That is called dhira. Not by seeing any woman or man, one is disturbed. He's adhira. She's adhira. So dhiradhira-jana-priyau priya-karau nirmatsarau... The Gosvamis, they were equally respectable for the dhiras and the adhiras. So a, a spiritual master, a gosvami, should be equally merciful both for the dhiras and the adhiras. Otherwise, he cannot become a preacher. Preacher has to meet so many fallen souls. So he, if he becomes disturbed, then he cannot preach. Therefore dhira. This word is here: anupasyanti, tam atma-stham ye anupasyanti dhira. He's called dhira. Without being dhira, you cannot perceive the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead within your heart, because the God is there in Paramatma feature. But you have to become dhira, without being disturbed. Then you can understand: "Here is Krsna within my heart."

santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
 [Bs. 5.38]

This dhira can be possible when we develop love for Krsna. Then we become dhira. Otherwise, it is not possible. Otherwise we shall be disturbed.

Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. And how we can see God? Not with these eyes. These eyes, but there must be some ointment. That is called prema. Just like a mother sees his child, although not very beautiful, very beautiful. Because he has, she has got love for the child. Others, they are seeing the child not very beautiful. The mother, out of ecstatic love, sees the child very beautiful. So similarly, unless we have developed our love for Krsna, we cannot see the Supreme Personality of Godhead within our heart, not only within our heart, everywhere.

santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
 [Bs. 5.38]

(reads purport) "The same Vedic truth given to Arjuna is given to all persons in the world who pose themselves as very learned but factually have but a poor fund of knowledge." This is poor fund of knowledge that "God and I, we one. Now, because we are illusioned, we are thinking that God is different from me, but when the illusion is over, then I and God become one." This is Mayavadi theory, monism. But actually this is not clear knowledge. God is..., God is always distinct from me. He's the Supreme. It is not that we are equal to God. We are equal to God in quality, not in quantity. Therefore those who are thinking that they are equal to God in every respect, they are illusioned. Maya, mayaya apahrta-jnanah. They have been called, they have been designated by Krsna as mayaya apahrta-jnanah. Although they appear to be very learned scholars, but the essence of the knowledge is taken away by maya. Therefore they say that God and ordinary human being is the same. Mayaya apahrta... Asura. This is called asura-bhava. Asura-bhava means not to accept the supremacy of the Lord but think Him as one with all individual souls. But that is not the fact. That is poor fund of knowledge. Actually, when one becomes advanced in knowledge, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19]. In due course of time, after many, many births, when he actually comes to the platform of knowledge, he can understand that "Vasudeva is great and I am small, I am insignificant." Therefore he surrenders. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. This is the sign of knowledge. When one surrenders to Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is to be understood that he has actually attained knowledge. Otherwise it is ignorance. To think of Krsna and ordinary person as equal is not knowledge; it is illusion.

So anyone who takes shelter of Krsna by the words of Krsna, believing Him... So... Just like Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Krsna orders that "You surrender unto Me. You become My devotee. You always think of Me." Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah [Bg. 9.34]. "You become My devotee." Mad-yaji. "You worship Me. You offer your obeisances unto Me." Persons who are in poor fund of knowledge, they think, "It is too much. Krsna is demanding too much. It is sophistry." No, no. That is not sophistry. That is the real position. Otherwise, without surrendering to Krsna, if you think yourself, that you are Krsna, that is in illusion, avisuddha-buddhayah, contaminated intelligence. Avisuddha-buddhayah. Ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah [SB 10.2.32]. Because they cannot understand Krsna, so their knowledge is not perfect, or not purified. Knowledge perfect is there in every living entity, but it is contaminated by the contact of maya. So one who can understand the position of Krsna and himself, he's called mukta. Mukta means liberated. Mukti means to know perfectly what is our relationship with Krsna. That is called mukti. (pause)

The verse...

antavanta ime deha
nityasyoktah saririnah
anasino 'prameyasya
tasmad yudhyasva bharata
 [Bg. 2.18]

Yuddha, fighting, Arjuna was ksatriya. It is his duty. Because here, in this material world, violence is also required. Violence. Because everyone is competitor, everyone is trying to become the Supreme, so there will be violence. Just like in your state, at the present moment, there is violence because one party is trying to become Supreme than the other. That is going on everywhere, all over the world, the struggle for existence. Everyone is trying to become supreme than the other. So there must be violence. So expecting that there will be violence, the ksatriya class required. Just like in the state, expecting that there will be violence, therefore the police department is maintained, the military department is maintained. So you cannot avoid violence from this material world. It is useless proposal. Our Mahatma Gandhi tried to stop violence. He started the nonviolence movement, but factually he had to die by violence. So ksatriya, they are trained up violent to become violent to stop violence. That is required. Therefore Krsna advises that "Don't try to become nonviolent because..." Tasmad yudhyasva bharata. "Don't think that by killing the body, your grandfather, or your nephews and your brother on the other side, they will be finished. No. They'll live. The body may be destroyed." Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. But actual soul, he'll transmigrate. According to Vedic philosophy, if a ksatriya dies in proper fighting, then he is immediately transferred to the heavenly planet, the heavenly planet. Because he sacrifices his body for right cause. Formerly, the fight was not a very trifle thing. After much consideration, then fighting or war was declared. Just like the fighting between the Kurus and the Pandavas; first of all, there was great endeavor to stop the fight. Krsna Himself became the messenger and was going from this party to another. Because Krsna... Both the parties were Krsna's family relatives. So He wanted to stop and mitigate the misunderstanding by mutual settlement. But it was not possible. The Duryodhana's party said that "We are not prepared to spare even a small piece of land which can hold the tip of the needle." Sucagra-bhumi. Then it was decided there must be fight. That fighting was meant for the ksatriyas. Formerly, there was no democracy. The so-called democracy. Democracy means that there was one king only; now there are hundreds of kings. One king and few ministers. Now one governor, one, I mean to say, three dozen secretaries, and three dozen... So many things... It is overburdened. The tax, tax is overburdened because there are so many officers. They have to be sumptuously paid. So tax is required. So in this age, Kali-yuga, by, I mean to say, finishing the monarchical system, people have accepted the democratic system, but it is not very much improvement. Because the state expenditure has very much increased and people are very much overburdened with taxes. So Krsna advises that tasmad yudhyasva. Tasmad yudhyasva bharata. "Don't think that your grandfather, or the other party, relatives, they'll be destroyed by fighting. It is not the fact, that, by destruction of the body, the soul is destroyed." Real purpose is... Bhagavad-gita. That we should understand that the soul is always existing, even... Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20].

ya enam vetti hantaram
yas cainam manyate hatam
ubhau tau na vijanito
nayam hanti na hanyate
 [Bg. 2.19]

There is another example. Krsna says... Because the soul is immortal, eternal, so if somebody kills somebody, the body is destroyed, but the soul is not destroyed. So if one thinks that "I have killed him, he's finished," he's also foolish. And one who thinks that "If I have died in the fight, then I will be finished." No. Ubhau tau na vijanitah. Both of them are ignorant. Ubhau tau na vijanito nayam hanti na hanyate. The living soul is never killed, neither he can kill others. For duty's sake... Of course, when there is fight... That is called dharma-yuddha. Dharma-yuddha, by the order of the Supreme. Just like Arjuna was fighting by the order of the Supreme. That is dharma-yuddha. If there is no sanction by the dharma, there is sastra injunction, "In this case fighting should be there, in case, in this case, there should be no fighting..." So one who follows the principles of regulation in the Vedas, that is called dharma-yuddha. Even there is fight, there is religion, there is piety. Even by killing and being killed. Two ksatriyas are fighting. Either he kills or he is being killed, in both ways they are profited. That will be explained. Just like Arjuna was advised that "My dear Arjuna, why you are hesitating to fight? Both ways you'll be benefited. If you can kill your enemies, then you get the kingdom, you enjoy. And if you are killed, then you are promoted to the heavenly planets. So where is your loss? Where is your loss?" This is the instruction given. A ksatriya who is fighting for the real cause, as sanctioned by the dharma-sastras, when both ways he's profited. If he becomes victorious, he's profited, but if he's killed in the battle, he's also profited. Both ways.

ya enam vetti hantaram
yas cainam manyate hatam
ubhau tau na vijanito
nayam hanti na hanyate
 [Bg. 2.19]

Then the next verse He clearly explains:

na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
 [Bg. 2.20]

This soul... "Do not think that soul is born." No. As God is ever-existing, the soul is ever-existing. It is not... There is no question of birth. And when there is no question of birth, there is no question of death. Because we experience, anything, anybody, who has taken birth, he dies. Nobody will live here. So if the soul has no birth, there is no question of death. And as Krsna, God, God is eternal, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam adyam Purana [Bs. 5.33]. Purana means old. Because Krsna is the original person, therefore He must be Purana, the oldest, older than Brahma. Because Brahma is given birth by Krsna. Therefore Krsna has been addressed in the Bhagavad-gita as prapitamaha [Bg. 11.39]. Brahma is called pitamaha, the grandfather, and prapitamaha means "the father of the grandfather." So Krsna has been addressed as prapitamaha, "father of Brahma." Therefore He's adi-purusa. Actually, within this creation, Lord Brahma is the original person, because he was firstborn. There was no other person before him. But he's given birth by Narayana, from the abdomen of Narayana in the lotus flower. Therefore He's the father of Brahma. Prapitamaha [Bg. 11.39]. So Krsna here says, because that Mayavadi philosophy's also nullified here. Because here it is said, na jayate, na jayate mriyate va kadacin nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah. Mayavada philosophy says that the living entity has become separated on account of illusion. Not becomes separated. He is... There is no separation. But it is illusion; he's thinking, "I am different from God." But Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah jiva-loke sanatanah [Bg. 15.7]. That amsa, part and parcel of God, he's sanatana. Not that, being covered by illusion, he's thinking "I am separated." He's separated always, sanatana. That is the statement of the Vedas. Separated. Although separated, quality one, but that separation, that fragments of Krsna, that is sanatana. It is not that by maya we are fragmental separated; when we are liberated, we merge into the body or the effulgence of God. We are separated in..., perpetually. Although we are eternal, but we are perpetually... vibhinnamsa. In the Varaha Purana it is said, vibhinnamsa, "separated part and parcel." So we should understand very clearly that, although we are eternal, part and parcel, but we are separated. Separated in this sense that we are, everyone of us, are individual, not merge into the existence. Everything is existing. In the Bhagavad-gita, you'll find: mat-sthani sarva-bhutani naham tesu avasthitah [Bg. 9.4]. Everything is existing in Him, Krsna. But still, Krsna is not the living entity.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna.
Indian: (Hindi?)

Prabhupada: Bhakti... If we chant Hare Krsna mantra, then we come to our perfection. At the present moment, we are illusioned. Just like every one of us thinking that "I am this body." Otherwise, why there is so much fighting? Everyone is thinking, "I am this body." This bodily concept of life is maya, illusion, or ignorance. So the whole process is to drive away the ignorance. Drive away. That is called jnana. We are in the ajnana.

caksur unmilitam yena
tasmai sri-gurave namah

Every one of us is covered by the darkness of ajnana. What is that ajnana? "I am this body." "I am Indian." "I am American." "I am Andhra," "I am Bengali." "I am this, I am that." So there is fighting, due to ajnana. So first of all we have to drive away this ajnana. Therefore Krsna is teaching Arjuna that "You are not this body. You are spirit soul." This is the first spiritual instruction by the authority to anyone, that "You are not this body." So by chanting Hare Krsna mantra... It is the medicine recommended in the sastra, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That dust of ignorance is moved. He can understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul, part and parcel of Krsna. My duty is to serve Krsna." In this way, he becomes enlightened gradually.

Question: Lord Krsna has claimed in the past He was existing, in present, He exists, in future He will be. In what... [break]... form Krsna is not?

Prabhupada: Just like you have dressed now, covered yourself with some type of dress. So if you change your dress, does it mean that you are finished?

Indian: But He...

Prabhupada: Try to understand: You are now in my presence dressed in a certain type of covering. Now, if you change this covering, does it mean you are finished.

Indian: No.

Prabhupada: Similarly, this body, this material body, has been explained as dress. So if I change my dress... Now, suppose I am now human being, and I change my dress to become a demigod, or I change my dress to become a dog. It does not mean that I am finished. I have simply changed my dress, according to my karma. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha upapatti [SB 3.31.1]. By your karma, you'll have a dress. After death, as it is explained in this verse, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20], the living soul is not destroyed after the destruction of this body. Therefore he remains, and his finer dress, subtle dress, is there -- mind, intelligence, and ego. So according to the composition of his mind, he develops another gross dress. This is the process. So you, spirit soul, you are always the same, although you are changing dress. Our problem is that we are perpetually changing dress, but our desire is to have a permanent life. That is spiritual education. You can have a permanent life, permanent dress, permanent knowledge, if you become free from this dress-changing problem. That is called mukti. The Krsna consciousness movement is to stop this business of dress changing. Yes?

Question: So do you mean to say that Krsna is also karma-bound?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Question: Do you mean to say that Krsna is also karma-bound?
Prabhupada: No, no.

Question: Just now you have quoted the example, sir, that as we changing our dresses, Krsna will also change that dress by changing from past to...

Prabhupada: What is, I have explained?

Indian: So just now you were complaining that as we change our dresses, Krsna will also be changing.

Prabhupada: Where, where I have said? I have never said.

Devotee: That man's original question is: "What form is Krsna in now?"

Indian: No. Excuse me. His question was: "Krsna was, will be and He is in what form?"

Prabhupada: Oh, his question was...?

Devotee: Yes. His question was that if Krsna says that "Never was there a time when you and I..." [break]

Prabhupada: That is not correct. Krsna... As we have got distinction between the body and the soul, Krsna has no such distinction. Krsna is completely soul. And if we think that Krsna is like us, that is forbidden. Avajananti mam mudhah, tanu, manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. Because Krsna comes before us just like a human being, if we think that "He's also like me," then we are ass. Krsna does not change His dress. Otherwise, Krsna could not say that "Millions and millions of years ago I spoke this philosophy to the sun-god." Because..., because we change our dress, we forget what I was, what you were, in your past life. Because you have changed the dress... [break]

Question: What is the business of Krsna consciousness society?

Prabhupada: Always thinking of Krsna. As Krsna says. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These four principles. Always think of Krsna, become Krsna's devotee, worship Krsna and offer your respect, obeisances to Krsna. That's all. This is Krsna consciousness. They are doing that. Nothing more, nothing less. These four principles.

Question: Is Narayana... [break]

Prabhupada: (Hindi:) ...sastra sunye paregara, samanye paregara, vo sastra janta nai chela grantha paragara, kavi mana...(?) (Hindi)

Question: The fundamental question of our interest is to know soul.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Question: The fundamental question of our interest is to know soul.

Prabhupada: Yes...?

Question: So what is the form and what is the definition of soul, and how to know whether there is soul...?

Prabhupada: That is... that is... that is described. We are describing na jayate na mriyate. Soul is never born, soul never dies. Soul is eternal. Nityah sasvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Even after the destruction of this body, the soul is not destroyed. These, these are the education.

Indian: There is a test of knowing the thing. You are just describing the qualities of the soul. If you can say mango, mango is very sweet, color is like this. But it requires to taste the mango. So I want to realize the soul. What is the shortest way?

Prabhupada: There is mango. But you have no eyes to see it. That is the difference. Soul is there. Just like we have begun our instruction: dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. There is dehi. There is the soul within this body. Krsna says. So we have to accept Krsna's authority. You cannot see the soul. That does not mean there is no soul. Your, what is the value of your eyes? You cannot see so many things. Because you cannot see the soul, it does not mean there is no soul. We have to accept the authority.

Indian: Why can't I see?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian: Why I can't...?

Prabhupada: Because your eyes are imperfect.

Indian: So what is the proof that there is soul?

Prabhupada: Because there is a proof. As soon as the soul is gone, you are dead body. That is the proof.

Indian: I should like that thing...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian: I should see.

Prabhupada: But you must be qualified to know.

Indian: How?

Prabhupada: That I have already explained, that you must become... Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. You must approach to a person who knows by surrender, not by challenge. You cannot know about soul and God by this challenging spirit. You have to become a submissive, submissive. You have to accept a spiritual master who knows. Then you'll know. It is not that in a meeting by challenging, you can know. No. That is not possible.

Indian: How to get that master who knows?

Prabhupada: That you have to search out. If you are fortunate, you'll get.

Indian (2): In Bhagavad-gita... [break]

Prabhupada: ... dvaita-advaita, that we have explained.

Indian: Dvaita-advaita, yes?

Prabhupada: Yes. Dvaita and advaita. Just like this finger is, is my finger. So it is part of this body. So you can, you can say, "This finger is also body." But, at the same time, the finger is not the body. Is it clear? You cannot say "This finger the whole body." But at the same time, you can say, "Yes, finger is body." If you say, "This is my body," there is no wrong because finger is also part of the body. But if you say that "The finger is body," that is also wrong. This is dvaita-advaita. It is simultaneously one and different. Similarly, the soul and the Supreme Lord, equal in quality. Krsna says, mamaivamsa. The small particle of gold is gold. That is advaita. You cannot say, because it is small particle of gold, you cannot say, "It is iron." It is gold. That is advaita. But the gold mine and the gold earring, there is difference. You cannot say the gold earring is as good as the gold mine. That is dvaita. so in this way, as so far our spiritual existence is concerned, we are one. But so far our energies are concerned, that is different. That is dvaita-advaita. You have no such big energy as God has. In that sense you are different. God can create millions of universe by His breathing. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah [Bs. 5.48]. You can create one small sputnik, and take credit. But God can create innumerable universes simply by breathing. So your energy, your power, is different from God's power. But in quality, you are one with God.

Indian: Then you must prove it is dvaita.

Prabhupada: Both advaita and dvaita. Both...

Indian: How? How? Prove, how?

Prabhupada: That, that is, that requires little brain. That requires little brain. Not dull brain. Very fertile brain requires. (end)
Bhagavad-gita 2.12 -- Hyderabad, November 17, 1972