Birth And Death Caused By Maya.

72/11/25 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.20


na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
[Bg. 2.20]

So the soul cannot be killed. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. And the soul has no birth, no death. As Krsna is eternal, Krsna has no birth and death... Ajo 'pi sann avyayatma. Krsna says in the Fourth Chapter. Aja. Krsna's another name is Aja. Or visnu-tattva. Aja. We are also aja. Aja means who does not take birth. So the both Krsna, or God, and the living entities, they are eternal. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). The only difference is because we are a small particle, therefore we are prone to be covered by material energy. This is the difference. We become cyuta, fallen down. But Krsna is Acyuta. He never falls down. That is the difference. So just like cloud. Cloud can cover a portion of sunlight. Not that cloud can cover the, all the sunlight. That is not possible. Suppose now this sky is covered with cloud, maybe hundred miles, two hundred miles or five hundred miles. But what is five hundred miles in comparison to the sun, millions and trillions of miles? So the cloud covers our eyes, not the sun. Similarly, maya can cover the eyes of the living entity. Maya does not cover the Supreme Person. No. That is not possible.

So this so-called birth and death is due to the covering of maya. The marginal potency. We are... Krsna has got many potencies. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. That is the Vedic instruction. The Absolute Truth has multi-energies. Whatever we see... Parasya brahmanah saktis tathedam akhilam jagat. Whatever little we are seeing, that is simply distribution of the energy of the Supreme. Exactly the same way: the sunshine and the sun globe, and the sun-god. Sun-god, from him... Not only sun-god, there are other living entities also. Their body is glowing. They have got fiery body. As we have got earthly body... Earth is prominent in this planet. Similarly, in the sun planet, the fire is prominent. As earth is one of the five elements, fire is also another one of the five elements. These things will be explained that the soul is never burned by the fire.

So there is no question of thinking that in the sun planet there is no living being. There are living beings, suitable for the planet. We learn from Brahma-samhita that kotisu vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam. Vasudha. Vasudha means planet. There are innumerable planets in each and every universe. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-kotisv asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam [Bs. 5.40]. This is only one universe. There are millions of universes also. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu was requested by one devotee of Lord Caitanya that "My dear Lord, You have come. Kindly You take away all these conditioned souls. And if You think that they are horribly sinful, they cannot be delivered, then You transfer all the sins upon me. I shall suffer. You better take them away." This is Vaisnava philosophy. Vaisnava philosophy means that para-duhkha-duhkhi. Actually, a Vaisnava is unhappy by seeing others unhappy. Personally, he has no unhappiness. Because he's in contact with Krsna, how he can be unhappy? Personally, he has no unhappiness. But he becomes unhappy by seeing the conditioned souls unhappy. Para-duhkha-duhkhi. Therefore, the Vasudeva Ghosa, he requested Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu that "You deliver all these unhappy conditioned souls. And if You think they are sinful, they cannot be delivered, then transfer all the sins of these people to me. I shall suffer, and You take them away." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very much pleased by his proposition and He smiled. He said that "This brahmanda, this universe, is only just like a mustard grain in the bag of mustard seeds." Our point is that there are so many universes. Just compare. You take a bag of mustard seeds and pick up one grain. In comparison to the pack of mustard seeds what is the value of this one grain? Similarly, this universe is like that. There are so many universes. The modern scientists, they are trying to go to other planets. Even they go, what is the credit there? There are kotisu vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam. One cannot go so many planets. Even according to their calculation, if they want to go to the topmost planet, which we call Brahmaloka, it will take forty-thousand of years in the light-year calculation.

So in God's creation everything is unlimited. It is not limited with our perspective of knowledge. So there are so many, innumerable universes, innumerable planets, and there are innumerable living entities. And all of them are rotating according to their karma. And birth and death means changing, one body to another. I make one plan in this life and... Because everyone is in the bodily concept of live. So so long we are in the bodily concept of life... "I am brahmana," "I am ksatriya," "I am vaisya," "I am sudra," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am so and so." These are all bodily concept of life designations. So so long I am in bodily concept of life, I think, "I have got this duty to do. As brahmana, I have got to do such and such things." "As American, I have got to do so many things." So long this consciousness will continue, we'll have to accept another body. This is the nature's process. So long...

Therefore we make some plan in this life, and my, this material body, this gross body is finished, that is dead, but my idea, in the subtle body, in the mind, it remains. And because it remains in my mind, therefore to fulfill my desire I have to accept another body. This is the law of transmigration of the soul. The soul is, thus, with his plan, he is transferred into another gross body. And along with the soul, there is Supersoul, Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. So the Supersoul, Supreme Personality of Godhead, gives him intelligence: "Now you wanted to execute this plan. Now you have got a suitable body and you can do it." So therefore we find that somebody is great scientist. Or a very nice mechanic. This means that in the last life he was mechanic, he was making some plan, and this life he gets chance, and he fulfills his desire. He discovers something and becomes very reputed, famous man. Because karmis, they want three things: labha-puja-pratistha. They want some material profit and they want some material adoration, and labha-puja-pratistha, and stability. This is material life. So one after another, we are trying to have some material profit, some material adoration, material reputation. And therefore we are having different types of body. And it is going on. Actually this acceptance of body does not mean I die. I am there. In subtle form, I am there. Na jayate na mriyate. Therefore there is no question of birth and death. It is simply transformation of the body. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22], as it will be explained in the next verse:

vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya
navani grhnati naro 'parani
tatha sarirani vihaya jirnany
anyani samyati navani dehi
[Bg. 2.22]

Dehi, the living entity, simply changing the dress. It is the dress. This body is dress. Now the question is... Just like there was some discussion that the spirit has no form. How it can be? If this is, this body is my dress, how I have no form? How the dress has got form? My coat or shirt has got a form because my body has got a form. I have got two hands. Therefore my dress, my coat, has also two hands. My shirt has also two hands. So if this is dress, this body, as it is described in the Bhagavad-gita -- vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22] -- so if it is dress, then I must have a form. Otherwise how this dress is made? It is very logical conclusion and very easy to understand. Unless I have got my own form, how the dress has got form? What is the answer? Anyone can say? How the original living entity can be without hands and legs? If this body's my dress... Just like you go to a tailor. He takes measurement of your hand, of your leg, of your chest. Then your coat or shirt is made. Similarly, when you have got a particular type of dress, it is to be assumed that I have got my form, spiritual form. Nobody can refute this argument. And apart from our so-called argument, we have to accept the statement of Krsna. The... Because He's authority.

So if I think that I, I am this coat, that is my ignorance. And that is going on. The so-called service to the humanity means washing the coat. Just like if you are hungry and I wash your coat very nicely with soap, will you be satisfied? No. That is not possible. So every one of us is spiritually hungry. What these people will do by washing the coat and shirt? There cannot be any peace. The so-called humanitarian service means they are washing this vasamsi jirnani. That's all. And death means... It is explained very nicely that when the dress, your dress, my dress, becomes too old, we change it. Similarly, birth and death means changing the dress. It is very clearly explained. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. Jirnani, old dress, old garment, we throw it away, and take another new dress, new garment. Similarly, vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya navani grhnati. A new, fresh dress. Similarly, I am old man.

So if I am not liberated, if, if I have got so many plans to execute in this material world, then I'll have to accept another body. But if you have no more plan, no more plan, niskincana... That is called niskincana. Niskincanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, niskincana. One has to be completely freedom, completely freedom about this material world. One should be disgusted. Then there is possibility of being transferred to the spiritual world. So long one has got a pinch of desire that "If I would have become like Brahma, or like king, like Jawaharlal Nehru," then I'll have to accept a body. This desire. Krsna is so liberal, so kind. Whatever we want -- ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg. 4.11] -- Krsna will give you. To take something from Krsna... Just like the Christians pray, "O God, give us our daily bread." So is it very difficult task for Krsna to give our dai...? He's giving already. He's giving daily bread to everyone. So this is not the mode of prayer. Their mode of prayer... As Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, mama janmani janmanisvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvayi [Cc. Antya 20.29, Siksastaka 4]. This is prayer. We haven't got to ask anything. Krsna, God, has made ample arrangement for our maintenance. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam eva avasisyate. But it is restricted by nature when we are sinful. We become atheists. We become demons. Then the supply is restricted. Then we cry for: "Oh, there is no rain. There is no this, no..." That is nature's restriction. But from God's arrangement, there is sufficient food for everyone. Eko bahunam vidadhati kaman. He supplying everyone.

So so long we'll have a pinch of material desire to execute our plan, then we have to accept a material body, and that is called janma. Otherwise, the living entity has no birth and death. Now, this janma, and mrtyu... The living entities, they are compared with the sparks, and the Supreme Lord as the big fire. So the big fire, that is the comparison. And the small sparks, both of them are fire. But sometimes the sparks fall down from the big fire. That is our falldown. Falldown means we come into the material world. Why? Just to enjoy, to imitate Krsna. Krsna is the supreme enjoyer. So we are servants. Sometimes... It is natural. The servant desires that "If I could enjoy like the master..." So when this sentiment or proposition comes, that is called maya. Because we cannot be enjoyer. This is false. If I think that I can become enjoyer, even in this material world, so-called... They're, everyone is trying to become enjoyer. And the last snare of enjoyer means that one thinks that "Now I shall become God." This is a last snare. First of all, I want to become manager, or proprietor. Then prime minister. Then this and that. And when everything is baffled, then one thinks that "Now I shall become God." That means the same propensity, to become master, to imitate Krsna, is going on.

Therefore this desire, that I shall merge into the existence of God, I shall become... Just like the example is given that "I am drop of water. Now I shall merge into the big ocean. Therefore I shall become ocean." This example is generally given by the Mayavadi philosophers. The drop of water is, when mixed up with the ocean water, they become one. That is only imagination. Every water, molecular. There are, there are so many individual molecular parts. Apart from that, suppose you mix up with the water, and merge into the Brahman existence, the samudra, the sea, or the ocean. Then again you'll be evaporated, because the water is evaporated from the ocean and it become cloud and again falls down on the ground, and it goes down again to the ocean. This is going on. This is called agamana-gamana, coming and again mixing. So what is the benefit? But the Vaisnava philosophy says that we do not want to mix up with the water; we want to become a fish within the ocean. That is very nice. If one becomes fish, a big fish, or small fish... It doesn't matter. If you go deep into the water, then there is no more evaporation. You remain.

Similarly, the spiritual world, the Brahman effulgence, if... Nirbheda-brahmanusandhi. Those who are trying to merge into the Brahman existence, for them, it is not very safe. That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam: vimukta-maninah. Vimukta-maninah. They're thinking that "Now I have merged into the Brahman effulgence. Now I am safe." No, it is not safe. Because it is said, aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty [SB 10.2.32]. Even after great austerities and penance, one may rise, param padam, in the, merging into the Brahman effulgence. Still, from there, he falls down. He falls down. Because Brahman, the spirit soul, is anandamaya. As Krsna, or the Absolute, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12), sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. So simply by merging into the Brahman existence, one cannot become anandamaya. Just like you are going very high in the sky. So to remain in the sky, it is not very anandamaya. If you can get shelter in some planet, then it is anandamaya. Otherwise, you have to come back again on this planet.

So nirvisesa, without varieties, there cannot be any ananda. Variety is the mother of enjoyment. So we are trying to... We are disgusted with these material varieties. Therefore some is trying to make these varieties zero and some is trying to make these varieties impersonal. But that will not give us the exact transcendental pleasure. If you can go up into the Brahman effulgence and take shelter of Krsna or Narayana... There are innumerable planets in the Brahman effulgence. They are called Vaikunthaloka. And the topmost Vaikunthaloka is called Goloka Vrndavana. So if you are fortunate enough to take shelter in one of these planets, then you are eternally happy in blissful condition of knowledge. Otherwise, simply to merge into the Brahman effulgence is not very safe. Because we want ananda. So in impersonal zero standard there cannot be any ananda. But because we have no information, the Mayavadi philosophers, of the Vaikuntha planets, they come back again to these material planets. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah [SB 10.2.32]. Adhah means in this material world. That I have explained many times. There are so many big, big sannyasis. They give up this material world as mithya, jagan mithya, and take sannyasa, and then again, after a few days, they come to social service, politics. Because they could not realize what is Brahman. They, for ananda, they have to take part in these material activities. Because ananda... We want anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). So if there is no spiritual ananda, there must be, they must come to the inferior quality. This material world is inferior quality. Apara. If we cannot get spiritual ananda, or superior pleasure, then we have to take this material pleasure. Because we want pleasure. Everyone searching after pleasure.

So aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adhah [SB 10.2.32]. So for this pleasure only we are making so many plans. According to our own brain, teeny brain, we are making plans. Just the, in the state also, they're making plans. Personally, individually, and commercially, everyone is making plan. The plan-making means becoming entangled. And he has to, they have to take birth again to fulfill the plan. Vasana. This is called vasana. So we have to purify the vasana, desire. That is required. If we don't purify, then we have to take birth, birth and death, repetition of birth and death. So that desire, how it can be purified? That desire can be purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. We have to give up this designation, "I am brahmana," "I am sudra," "I am ksatriya," "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this and..." So many designations. Because I am spirit soul, but this is, this covering is my designation. so if I identify with this designation, then I'll have to repeat the birth and death. That you can purify. How it can be purified? That can be purified by devotional service. When you understand that you are part and parcel of Krsna, when I understand that "I am eternally related with Krsna. He's Supreme, I am servant," and when I engage myself in His service, that is the purification of desires. Without Krsna consciousness, everyone is acting on different material consciousness. "I am American. Therefore I must work in this way. I must fight with the Russians." Russian thinking that "I am Russian. I must fight the Americans." Or the China... So many designations. This is called maya, illusion.

So we have to purify. That purification means one must know that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." So what I am doing as spirit soul? Whatever I am working, at the present moment, on this bodily concept of life... But what about, what I am doing as spirit soul? This knowledge required. This knowledge comes when we are purified.

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]

Mad-bhaktim labhate param. When? After being free from this material designation, brahma-bhutah. After being free, not before that. So bhakti is not a sentiment. Bhakti... People say, "Those who are not very learned, cannot study Vedic literature very nicely, and therefore they take to bhakti." No. Bhakti, actual bhakti, begins when one has become completely brahma-bhutah.

brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]

That, that is pure transcendental stage of executing devotional service, after being free from material designation. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is called nirmala. That is mukti. Because spirit soul is eternal. It has to be cleansed, the material contamination. So when he's clean, then hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When our senses are purified... Not this American hand or Indian hand. "It is Krsna's hand. This hand should be engaged in Krsna's service, in sweeping the temple." If he thinks like this, he is far, far greater than any Vedantist. If he simply knows that "This hand belongs to Krsna," then he is far, far greater than any Vedantist. These Vedantists... Of course, all devotees, they are Vedantists. But somebody thinks that he has monopolized as Vedanta. Veda means knowledge. Anta means ultimate. So Vedanta means ultimate knowledge. So ultimate knowledge is Krsna. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]. So the so-called Vedantist, if he cannot understand what is Krsna, what is the meaning of that Vedantist? It has no meaning. They, the, he's perfect vedanti, who knows that "Krsna is Supreme. He's my Lord. I am His eternal servant." This is Vedanta knowledge.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. [break]

Indian: ...that is omkara. Omkara-svarupa. But what I want to know is who is Lord Siva, Visnu and Brahma? Whether these three of them are gods?

Prabhupada: Yes. They're expansion of God. Just like the earth. And then, from earth, you find trees, wood. And then, in the tree, you can set fire. It becomes smoke. Then comes out the fire. When you get the fire, you can take your work from the fire. So the, everything is one, but... Just the same example: from earth, the wood; from wood, the smoke; from smoke, the fire. But if you have to take business, then it is required the fire, although the, all of them, are the one. Similarly, there are demigods, Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. So if you have to take business, then you have to go to the fire, Visnu, sattama, sattva-guna. This is the process. Although they are one, but your business can be completed with Visnu, not with others. What is my business? My business is to get out of these material clutches. So if anyone is eager to be free from these material clutches, then he must take shelter of Visnu, not others.

Indian: Kindly let me know that what is desire. So long desire is there, we can't realize God. And realizing God is also a desire.

Prabhupada: Desire means material desires. If you think that you are Indian and your desire is how to make your country improve... Or so many desires. Or if you are a family man. So these are all material desires. So long you are enwrapped by material desires, then you are under the condition of material nature. As soon as you think that you are, your, you are not Indian or American, you are not a brahmana or Vaisnava, brahmana or ksatriya, you are eternal servant of Krsna, that is called purified desire. Desire is there, but you have to purify the desire. That I have explained just now. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. These are upadhis. Suppose you are in a black coat. So does it mean you are black coat? If you say... If I ask you, "Who are you?" If you say, "I am black coat," is that the proper answer? No. Similarly, we are in a dress, American dress or Indian dress. So if somebody asks you "Who are you?" "I am Indian." That is wrong identification. If you say, "Aham brahmasmi," that is your real identification. That realization required.

Indian: How can I get...?

Prabhupada: That requires, uh, you have to go... Tapasa brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. You have to undergo the principle. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. You have to accept the process. Then you'll realize.

Indian: But yesterday you also represented that there was some devotee, he renounced this whole world, went to forest, and he was chanting the name of Lord Krsna, this and that. But he was, some step of (?) bhakti-yoga, and he was having the love of one deer. So at the time of death, he got idea of deer, and next birth, he become deer. So there was no desire intentionally, but anyhow he came in that...

Prabhupada: No, there was desire. He was thinking of a deer. There was desire.

Indian: We think about so many things...

Prabhupada: So that is the practice. You should simply come to the thinking of Krsna. That is perfection. And if you become embarrassed with so many things, then there is risk of becoming a cat, dog, deer, or demigod, anything.

Indian: Maharaja, why you...?

Prabhupada: Yam yam vapi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram. Your, at the time of death, whatever you desire, you get the next body. That is the nature's law. [break] ...had been in Russia, in Moscow, many young men there are, very much anxious to accept this Krsna consciousness movement. And some of them were initiated by me. And they are going on. Just like these boys are going on. So this... So far my experience is concerned, everywhere I go, people are the same. It is by artificial, I mean to say, means, they have been designated as Communist and this and that. [break] ...people, they're all the same. As soon as we speak of Krsna consciousness, they respond immediately. That is my experience. Actually that is a fact. In the Caitanya-caritamrta, it is said, nitya-siddha krsna-prema sadhya kabhu naya, sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya [Cc. Madhya 22.107]. The Krsna consciousness is there in everyone's heart. It is dormant. But it is contaminated and covered by the material dirty things. So sravanadi, suddha-citte. This means, as you are hearing... Just like these boys, these American and European boys, they came, first of all, to hear me. By hearing, hearing, now the Krsna consciousness is awakened, and they have taken seriously to Krsna devotion [break] ...or Africa or India. Everyone has got Krsna consciousness within. Our process, the sankirtana movement, is to awaken that consciousness. That's all. Just like one man is sleeping. To awake him: "Get up! Get up!" Uttisthata jagrata prapya varan nibodhata. So this is our process. It's not that artificially we are making somebody Krsna conscious. Krsna consciousness is there already. That is a birthright of every living entity. Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. Just like father and the son. There cannot be any separation. But sometimes it happens that the son goes out of home, by some chance, or from childhood. He forgets who is his father. That is a different thing. But the relationship between father and son is never broken.

So we are all Krsna's part and parcel, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. So our relationship is eternal. Now we have forgotten. We are thinking that "I am not Krsna's; I am America's." "I am India's" This is our illusion. So by proper method... The method is hearing. And to chant through his ear: "You are not American. You are Krsna's. You are not American." "You are not Indian. You are Krsna's." In this way, hearing, hearing, he may: "Oh, yes, I am Krsna's." This is the way. We have to constantly inject: "You are not American. You are not Indian. You are not Russian. You are Krsna's. You are Krsna's." Then each mantra has got value; then he comes, "Oh, yes, I am Krsna's." Brahma-bhutah prasa... "Why I was thinking I was Russian and American and this and that?" Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. As soon as he comes to that state, he has no more lamentation. Here, as American or Indian or Russian, we have got two things: lamentation and hankering. Everyone is hankering, what he does not possess: "I must have this." And what he possesses, if it is lost, he's lamenting: "Oh, I have lost." So these two business are going on. So long you come, do not come to Krsna consciousness, your, these two business will go on, lamenting and hankering. And as soon as you come to Krsna consciousness, you become joyful. There is no reason of lamenting. There is no reason of hankering. Everything is complete. Krsna is complete. So he becomes free. That is brahma-bhutah state. So this can be awakened by hearing. Therefore the Vedic mantra is called sruti. One has to receive this awakening through the ear. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh [SB 7.5.23]. Always one has to hear and chant about Visnu. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Then ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], everything will be cleansed, and he'll come to understand that "I am eternal servant of Krsna."

Indian: [break]

Prabhupada: When you become Vaisnava, the brahminism is already included. General process is, unless one does not come to the sattva-guna platform, he cannot understand what is Krsna consciousness. That is the general rule. But this Krsna, devotional service, Krsna consciousness movement, is so nice that simply by hearing about Krsna, you come to immediately to the brahminical platform. Nasta-prayesu abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya [SB 1.2.18]. Abhadra. Abhadra means these three qualities of material nature. Even brahminical qualities. The sudra quality, the vaisya quality, or the ksatriya quality, or even brahmana quality. They are all abhadras. Because in brahmana quality, again the same identification comes. "Oh, I am brahmana. Nobody can become brahmana without birth. I am great. I am brahmana." This false prestige comes. So he becomes bound up. Even in brahminical qualities. But when he comes to the spiritual platform, actually, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "I am not brahmana, I am not sannyasi, I am not grhastha, I am not brahmacari," Not, not, not...These eight principles, varnasrama, He denies. Then what You are? Gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna." This is self realization.

Indian: [break] supposed to be universal Lord, and about Him...

Prabhupada: Why supposed? He is. Why you suppose like that?

Indian: Of course. But, at the same time, only in Indian history or in Indian philosophy, only God's description is there. But whereabouts, in America or other places, in other continents, there is no description in their history at all.

Prabhupada: Because there is no history and there is no philosophy.

Indian: Pardon me.

Prabhupada: There is no philosophy in other countries.

Indian: But, God, there is no...

Prabhupada: If there is any philosophy, that is in India. And you are so, I mean to say, what can I say, that you say because the philosophy's not in America, therefore this philosophy is null and void.

Indian: But they say later there was no Lord Visnu, because...

Prabhupada: Why not? They do not know. Now they are knowing it.

Indian: But they say that that description that He has wandered there, He lives in there. That should be some reason.

Prabhupada: Why you are so envious of America? (laughter)

Indian: No, no. God is distributed (?) everywhere.

Prabhupada: God is everywhere. Therefore God's disciples or God's sons are everywhere.

Indian: Why you...

Prabhupada: So if, in America, this Krsna consciousness is preached, why you are envious?

Indian: Why?

Prabhupada: Why you are envious?

Indian: I didn't follow you.

Prabhupada: You do not like that this philosophy should be preached in America?

Indian: Should be preached

Prabhupada: Then?

Indian: But why they are not in all these histories?

Prabhupada: That...

Indian: There is no history at all. Even in the United States also there is no mention that Lord Visnu or Lord Krsna, like that, and They were also...

Prabhupada: Have you read, have you read Krsna's book, Bhagavad-gita?

Indian: To some extent.

Prabhupada: Then you do not know what Krsna says, that "Everyone, My son." Krsna says, sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayah [Bg. 14.4], tasam mahad yonir brahma aham bija-prada... Krsna claims everyone -- American, Indians, birds, beasts -- everyone, His son. You do not know the philosophy.

Indian: The Gita is coming out of India. That is my question.

Prabhupada: So it is therefore, because it is made in India, it should not be accepted?

Indian: Not like that.

Prabhupada: Then what is your philosophy, I do not know.

Indian: There is no mention of...

Prabhupada: What is your philosophy? I do not know.

Syamasundara: He says because there is no history books...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: There are no history books from the West showing Krsna used to live in the West, or that He ever was in the West.

Prabhupada: So... There is history, the Christians believe, God. So Krsna is God. So what is the difference? Krsna is God. So do they not believe in God? In the Western histories?

Indian: They believe.

Prabhupada: Then that's all right. Now, they believed in God. Now we are giving that "Here is God." That is the difference only. They believed in God. But they did not know...

Indian: ...there only the Lord existed.

Prabhupada: What is that? (laughter)

Devotee: So much rascal philosophy.

Prabhupada: [break]...understand. They... [break] ...God. Now we are giving "Here is God, here is the name and address of God." What is the difference?

Indian: In India, about God it is...

Prabhupada: India! Why you are thinking in India? God is not for India or American. God is for everyone.

Indian: Then why varnasrama-dharma, there also, they are prevalent, that brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra?

Prabhupada: Yes. They prevailed. They also went from India. That is the history. There were... All the ksatriyas, they went to Europe and America. That is in the Mahabharata history. They were also on the Vedic culture. Now they have lost. Just like recently. We have got experience, within twenty years. Some of the Hindus who became Mohammedan. And they become Pakistani. But twenty years before, they were not Pakistan. So gradually this misconception is increasing. Otherwise, there was one. One God, one civilization, everything, there was one. [break]

Indian (2): We have come to the world as the servant of Lord Krsna, but then why should we think, why should we think that we are Krsna's?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Devotee: Why should we... He said... You say that we are all come to the, as servants of Krsna. So why should we think that we are Krsna?

Prabhupada: Who thinks we are Krsna? We do not think. We do not think like that.

Devotee: Belong to Krsna.

Devotee (2): We are Krsna's.

Prabhupada: We are servants of Krsna. We are Krsna's. Just like you are son of your father, similarly, we are servants of Krsna. We are not Krsna. Who says that we are Krsna? We do not say. We are servants of Krsna.
Indian: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: [break] ... and chant Hare Krsna. Where is the difficulty? This is the short cut. This is the shortest cut.

Indian: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian: (Hindi)

Prabhupada: Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam, kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva [Cc. Adi 17.21]. (Hindi) (end)
>>> Bhagavad-gita 2.20 -- Hyderabad, November 25, 1972